10/04/2008 / USA
We're
horrified about what's happened in Texas.
If they can do this to our neighbours, they could do it to us too. To be
handled in such a way, it's just total disregard for civil rights. We're helping
the women there who've had their children taken away by exchanging letters of
support. They need to get to the bottom of this case. It happened in our
community once when somebody from outside called social services and children
were taken away. If someone's got a problem with you, they will do that [make a
false call].
The founder of
the Mormon church, Joseph Smith, was himself a polygamist. He claimed that God had revealed to him that the principle of
multiple wives was divine. He defended the principle by explaining that Jesus's disciples themselves had several wives. Mormons work on the basis of revelations
transmitted through their prophets. They say that the bible is constantly being
updated.
Within
Mormonism there are different reactions to this type of sect. People who
understand the history of the religion are more open minded about the idea of
polygamy. In the Mormon religion you are married to your wife for eternity, not
just on earth. So if your wife dies and you remarry, then officially you are a
polygamist. But most Mormons find this really very odd.
"Polygamous relationships tend to be very successful"
Image taken from Mormon Polygamy: A History
Following a call from a 16-year-old girl claiming she was sexually abused and assaulted by her 50-year-old husband, a fundamentalist Mormon compound where men have several wives has been raided and 419 children taken into temporary custody by Texan authorities.
The raid took place last Thursday after a teenager called social services on March 19, saying she was forced to marry at 15 and was beaten and choked by her husband while he forced her to have sex with him. The ranch is the base of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day (FDLS), an off-shoot of the mainstream Latter-day Saints (LDS) who denounced polygamy over 100 years ago.
"I wouldn't be human if I said I wasn't jealous"
Carlene Cannon lives in Davis County Cooperative in Salt Lake City; a similar compound and in contact with the FLDS community in Texas. For legal reasons, she cannot answer questions about her marital situation.
We're
horrified about what's happened in Texas.
If they can do this to our neighbours, they could do it to us too. To be
handled in such a way, it's just total disregard for civil rights. We're helping
the women there who've had their children taken away by exchanging letters of
support. They need to get to the bottom of this case. It happened in our
community once when somebody from outside called social services and children
were taken away. If someone's got a problem with you, they will do that [make a
false call].
I live this way because my parents lived that way and it's something very dear to me. If you're an adult you should be able to make that decision by yourself. It was definitely the right decision for me. There are so many benefits. For example, your children have more than one mother. While someone goes to work, someone else looks after the kids. I wouldn't be human if I said I wasn't jealous but there are more important feelings than that. What frightens me about monogamous relationships is that only half of them survive, whereas polygamous relationships tend to be very successful.
I think they should decriminalise plural marriage because then people wouldn't be forced to go underground; there wouldn't be a situation like this one. People would have access to services and a fair justice system, like normal people. I blame the government for this, for isolating us. We're just a different culture. You can't herd us away like cattle."
"The idea of polygamy has really soaked into the Mormon church"
Marie Drillhon volunteers for UNADFI, an association that defends sect victims.
The founder of
the Mormon church, Joseph Smith, was himself a polygamist. He claimed that God had revealed to him that the principle of
multiple wives was divine. He defended the principle by explaining that Jesus's disciples themselves had several wives. Mormons work on the basis of revelations
transmitted through their prophets. They say that the bible is constantly being
updated.
The official church abandoned polygamy, which they call "plural marriage", in 1890 during the unification of the US. If their State, Utah, had not renounced the practice, they wouldn't have been able to join the union. Because of their practicality, the Mormons chose to give it up it.
The idea of polygamy has really soaked into the Mormon church. Even today I meet young missionaries who don't appear particularly shocked by the idea of having several wives. And as the case of the Texs ranch reminds us, there are rebel groups that haven't given it up. The US holds a very strange position when it comes to religious freedom."
"Most Mormons find this really very odd"
Michael Nielsen was brought up as a Latter-day Saint - a branch considered as mainstream Mormonism. He's a member of the Mormon Social Science Association and a psychology professor.
Within
Mormonism there are different reactions to this type of sect. People who
understand the history of the religion are more open minded about the idea of
polygamy. In the Mormon religion you are married to your wife for eternity, not
just on earth. So if your wife dies and you remarry, then officially you are a
polygamist. But most Mormons find this really very odd.
This is such a huge problem in the US; it's estimated there are 40,000 practising polygamists here, so the authorities have largely tried to ignore it. But with this case they felt they had to act. The FDLS church has become much more authoritative in the last 15 years. Except for their ability to bring more children into the church, women and children are not valued highly.
They carry on with this because they think that even though it's tough in this life, they will be rewarded in heaven. "The highest degree of glory is awaiting them". Most of them don't agree with child abuse, but those who suffer or see others suffering have a strong belief that "god is testing you" and "the prophet can do very difficult things but it's just part of life". A woman's job is to make babies - in fact part of her status is how many babies she has. And many of them are isolated and they can't get away. There are guards on the gates and when a woman goes into the town she's not allowed to take all of her children.
This event will strengthen the community. They're told that the people "outside" are sent by the devil to try to take them away, and this will only prove them right."
A film about escaping the FLDS
Laurie Allen, a woman who escaped from a polygamous compound at 16, has made a film about the FLDS community in Utah called Banking on Heaven. This is the trailer.
Big Love
America's HBO produces a series about a polygamous marriage called Big Love. This is the introduction to the show.
»
Inscrivez-vous via 
Maintenant, nous travaillons sur...
Suggéré par les Observateurs
Émissions
Commentaires
Why the spin on this?
Soumis par HK (non vérifié) le dim, 20/04/2008 - 02:31.The consistency of the press to link the RLDS group with the LDS church is interesting and revealing. It would take less than 5 minutes of journalistic effort to arrive at the true relationship between the two; that it is nonexistent.
It takes longer than that to craft each story in such a way that the fabricated association between the two is not readily evident.
Another example of lockstep press bias, is the coverage of the 16yo girl who lodged the initial complaint. Her story of abuse at the hands of RLDS members has been repeated so often it has become rote.
But who has read the story that the girl never existed? The initial accusation against the RLDS was an invention of Rozita Swinton. A 33yo black woman of Colorado Springs TX.
http://www.keyetv.com/content/news/topnews/story.aspx?content_id=247fdf9...
She has been arrested for that crime. Has anyone here read that? Wouldn't that be at least as important as endlessly repeating the initial (and false) accusations?
Another story buried or ignored is how the oft recounted, bizarre details of RLDS life are debunked in court by John Walsh, an independent religious scholar. CNN mentions it; at the end of the article, in a tone very different than the headline.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/18/polygamy.custody/index.html
Also, there is how the prosecution 'expert', Bruce Perry sits on the editorial board of "Cultic Studies Review". CSR is better known as the American Family Foundation, an 'anti-cult' entity; originally assembled from smaller organizations dedicated to the elimination of Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Roman Catholics and other not-Protestant Christian faiths.
CSR is now a prominent entity of secular and religious leaders, unified in the goal of deciding who are cultists and then systematically targeting them.
I only know enough about the RLDS to know that they are not Latter Day Saints by any viable definition. I have no knowledge of any other abuse claims or if they are valid. But I've acquired enough evidence to indicate that the press and the prosecution are behaving as if there is no profit in the truth of the matter.
HK
Utilisateur non inscrit
When someone is a
Soumis par Hellan Keller (non vérifié) le dim, 20/04/2008 - 02:14.When someone is a fundamentalist member of their faith, they are isolating themselves to it's core and most commonly held beliefs.
If what they believe is outside of the mainstream of that faith, they cannot be a fundamentalist; by sheer definition and meaning of the term.
The FDLS sect are not Mormon, because they are not members of record of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It's no more complex than that, despite the occasional obsessive desire to make it so.
The FDLS also vary widely from actual fundamentalist LDS members.
As example; there are no LDS members practicing polygamy, anywhere.
LDS members who are in harmony with their core values, will be active and out front in their community and their society, not cloistered in a compounded environment.
LDS dress is important only as it doesn't invite or participate in an unhealthy lifestyle. Beyond being well groomed it is not an issue.
Nearly all of the salacious RLDS details, that the press enraptures over, do not at all reflect the day to day life of any genuine Latter Day Saint you will meet.
Yes, LDS members wore clothing of 1880's style - in 1880. Attempting to pass off pieces of the past as relevant and present day is dishonest journalism for those who indulge in it.
HK
Utilisateur non inscrit
My opinion
Soumis par Le favori (non vérifié) le sam, 19/04/2008 - 16:53.It's not good for a future of the world
Utilisateur non inscrit
"...polygamous relationships tend to be very successful."
Soumis par Anonyme (non vérifié) le sam, 12/04/2008 - 00:52."...polygamous relationships tend to be very successful."
Of COURSE polygamous relationships are 'successful" ! When a man has a slew of women and children who are oppressed and willing/forced to submit to his every whim/command what is there to disagree about!
And when a female is taught from birth that this is the way things should be and knows that objection results in mortal discipline at best and eternal damnation at worst, she is an easy target for abuse and conditioned to condone that same abuse with her children.
Polygamy is illegal, plain and simple. It is a crime. You want it changed, go through the proper channels and if you fail, live by the law. Anything as shrouded in secrecy as the polygamous sects in this country are just leave a door open for the most innocent of victims to be preyed upon.
Freedom of religion is one thing. Using that as a cover for physical and sexual abuse is a whole other matter. It needs to stop, and the women who excuse it and allow their children to be abused are one of two things...victims (in denial) who need intervention or criminals who need to go to prison. There is no in between here.
Utilisateur non inscrit
Religion's Reality
Soumis par Linda White (non vérifié) le mer, 16/04/2008 - 14:41.These women sound just like Patey Ramsey. IIII dddiiiddd nnnooottt kkkiiillllll JJJJooonnnbbbeeebbbnnneeettt. brained washed,drugged or what ever excuse. It is just wrong that they themselves would willingly take part in the abuse of their own children. I didn't believe Patsy and I don't believe these sector women. I hold them fully responsible and feel they should be held accountable for their part in child endangerment and abuse they have bestowed upon these children. This is the role America allow them to play in the name of religion. The almighty U.S. callig for extention of others religion because of fascist and radicalism. Under what category does this mess fall? Do we really know the true nature of religion in America?
Utilisateur non inscrit
We should send Bill Clinton
Soumis par Anonyme (non vérifié) le ven, 11/04/2008 - 00:01.We should send Bill Clinton Barney frank down to Texas to tell the people how to raise a family.
This raid is a big story about Big love. It is worth
A million in Iraq.The part about taking the Bibles and
forcing into the Church should tickle the Imams in
the friday talk. THE CHILD PROTECTION LESBIONS CAN
TELL THE CHILDREN ALL ABOUT ABORTION.
Utilisateur non inscrit
Abuse in other cults
Soumis par Danny Haszard (non vérifié) le jeu, 10/04/2008 - 19:34.The Jehovah's Witnesses have settled lawsuits alleging church policies protected men who sexually abused children for many years.
Frederick McLean is one of the most-wanted fugitives in the United States
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21917798/
Utilisateur non inscrit
The misconceptions put forth
Soumis par Anonyme (non vérifié) le jeu, 10/04/2008 - 16:56.The misconceptions put forth by the media is more of a reflection on the "Media's ignorance", lack of scholarship, and in some cases, even outright deception,
than it is on the Mormons.
The Associated Press style guide states clearly that the term "Mormon" is "never" to be used, unless referring to members of the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", period. Any other group should not be referred to with that term in any way, whatsoever.
You would never refer to a Lutheran or an Anglican as a fundamentalist Catholic. The LDS Church increases it's membership by a million people every 2.5 years. Honest people seeking truth don't look to the lying media for their guidance.
This group in Texas is the absolute antithesis of anything a Mormon believes or teaches.
These people in Texas are in no way akin to the actual Mormons, nor does their style of polygamy in any way resemble the polygamy of the 1800's Mormon church.There was no marrying nieces and or isolation in the 1800's.
In reality, only 5-10% of all 19th century adult males ever entered into polygamy. Also remember that polygamy is not just a Mormon thing, Biblical Prophets such as, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Solomon, David, etc. were all polygamists. The worlds three major religions consider all of them to be men of God.
True journalists would never make these mistakes, Baptists, propogandists and shoddy journalists do.
If the media wants to put their bias on display for the world to see, who are we to intervene. Like all dishonest endeavours, the truth will out!.
ajarizona
Utilisateur non inscrit
Thank you!
Soumis par Anonyme (non vérifié) le ven, 11/04/2008 - 02:59.Thank you!
Utilisateur non inscrit
Mormon extremists?
Soumis par Team Observers le jeu, 10/04/2008 - 17:36.Dear "ajarizona",
If I get your point well, you're saying that we shouldn't be using the term "fundamentalist Mormon". I understand you want to make it clear that these groups are totally spearate from the official Mormon church. But I think that's what we showed in this post. I find your criticism a bit harsh since, unlike many media, we gave a Mormon the possibility to explain in his words what are the differences between the official church and these extreme groups. We haven't edited nor cut his comment. And I believe he made his point clear. That being said, this piece indeed mentions that these fundamentalist groups broke away from the Mormons and that the Mormons originally encouraged polygamy. Because that's a fact. Last thing, we also received messages from Mormons who appreciated the diversity of opinions we offered in this piece. So we understand your criticism, but it appears that not everybody agress with it, even among Mormons. Regards,
Julien, on behalf of Team Obsververs
Team Observers
In spite of the fact
Soumis par Carl (non vérifié) le jeu, 10/04/2008 - 16:18.In spite of the fact that
the last interviewee said that most Mormons find the idea of polygamy
very strange, as a neutral reader, I was still left with the
impression that most Mormons are sympathetic to polygamy, which is
actually not true. Most Mormons I know are disgusted by it and shun
it, and are grateful that the practice was abandoned.
In fact, although I have no desire to practice polygamy, I believe
that consenting adults should be allowed to engage in polygamy if they
want to, but most of my Mormon colleagues disagree with me.
Utilisateur non inscrit
Mormons don't support polygamy ???
Soumis par Anonyme (non vérifié) le sam, 12/04/2008 - 01:04.Are you kidding me???
They sustain a 'prophet' who introduced it, make excuses for the fact that HE was having sex with and 'spiritually' married to numerous young girls aged 14 to 17 AND they look forward to polygamous relationships in the Celestial Kingdom !!! The LDS 'renounces' polygamy now as a PR move that keeps them mainstream and wealthy. But you can bet if 'the prophet' said he received a revelation from God saying they were to practice it again the better part of the membership would 'sustain' the prophet and do as they are told, just like they do every day.
Utilisateur non inscrit
Reply to Carl
Soumis par Anonyme (non vérifié) le jeu, 10/04/2008 - 16:56.Michael here, to reply to Carl's post. Carl is right in the sense that most Mormons do not wish to practice polygamy themselves. Nevertheless, it remains a part of the belief system. Mormons believe that marriages solemnized in the temple are eternal. A Mormon man whose wife dies can marry again, in the temple, and with the belief that the second marriage also is for eternity. A somewhat recent example is the marriage of LDS Apostle Russell M. Nelson to Wendy Watson after the death of his first wife. If one believes that marriage extends beyond mortality, and marries more than one person, then the logical conclusion seems obvious.
Most Latter-day Saints are uncomfortable with polygamy. We tend to avoid its presence in our history, and we prefer not to consider the implications of our beliefs/doctrines in the hereafter.
My statement that "People who understand the history of the religion are more open minded about the idea of polygamy" should be amended, as there is an important wrinkle to add. I am presently analyzing the data from a survey of people's beliefs regarding polygamy. In that study, Mormons who knew a polygamist and were more knowledgeable about polygamy through that experience had more positive opinions of the practice, compared with Mormons who did not know a polygamist. However, Mormons who are more familiar with the history of polygamy - but did not themselves know a polygamist - were actually less devout, and more likely to have abandoned the church. Part of this research is being published later this year in The Archive for the Psychology of Religion; other parts will follow.
I hope this clarification helps.
Utilisateur non inscrit
Mormons' view of polygamy
Soumis par Carl (non vérifié) le jeu, 10/04/2008 - 17:12.Michael, I agree with you that there is a theological precedent for polygamy, and I find your survey very fascinating, but I think that most Mormons think of the afterlife in so nebulous a way that it is incorrect to assume that the post-mortal implications of serial temple marriages constitute practical acceptance of polygamy among Mormons.
Utilisateur non inscrit
You may be right
Soumis par Anonyme (non vérifié) le jeu, 10/04/2008 - 18:59.Carl, you may well be right; it would be interesting to survey people on that point as well. My data don't address that issue.
I have discussed the question with people more informally. Some say that they put such questions "on the shelf", like a book they don't need/want to read at this time, but may return to later. They seem to expect an answer to the question, but don't know what that answer will be. Sometimes they say this in such a way that it conveys apprehension at what the answer might be.
Others appear to have considered the question more fully and reached an answer. For example, one man I know remarried when his first wife died, and made a deliberate choice with his second wife to _not_ marry for eternity because they did not want a polygamous relationship in the hereafter. The marriage ceremony was held in the temple, but they were married for "time" but not "eternity". (The LDS way of saying "'til death do we part".) I don't know of any publicly-available statistics that would indicate how common such a choice is. I do recall hearing a change in policy that disallowed that option; I believe that if a marriage is performed in the temple now, it cannot be a time-only marriage.
It would be interesting to investigate people's beliefs in the afterlife, and how they conceive relationships. I am not aware of any systematic research on that question.
~Michael
Utilisateur non inscrit